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Prof Itse Sagay, the Chairman, Presidential Advisory Committee on Anti-corruption in this interview with the Editor-In- Chief of the Complete News, Enitan Olukotun, the eminent Professor of Law opens up on hurdles mounted by western countries in the Federal Government’s bid to repatriate loots starched abroad by corrupt ex-leaders among other matters . Excerpts:
The nation was astonished to learn from you that Nigeria might forfeit about $550M Abacha’s loot, could give us more details into this?
Yes, we held a press conference on this on Thursday in Abuja where we pointed out this. Although, a lot of our looted funds had been recovered, very little had been returned to us. Most countries, including the developed nations are reluctant to send back these monies.
They create obstacles all over the place and at times when they finally agreed they might deduct their expenses which may run up to 40 or 60 Percent of the money. In most cases, they will even dictate to you how you should spend it.
The latest one I think is United States or Switzerland which is actually trying to spell out how the recovered loot should be spent. One of them is even trying to suggest that the United Nations should spend it on our behalf which really is an insult on our integrity.
So, there is all these difficulties, the one in the United States is actually bad because President Barrack Obama expressed his intention of transferring the money back but there is a Nigerian who calls himself a Lawyer but who has been struck out in the US says that he has a 40percent interest in our money that he had done some work in trying to trace it that he is entitle to 40percent.
One man in a country of about a 170million alone wants to take 40 percent while the rest of the country will take 60percent. We have all sorts of things like that. We are trying to use diplomacy and leverage on our contacts in those countries using the agencies under office of Senior Assistant to the President on foreign Affairs and Diaspora, Hon. Abike Dabiri-Erewa . She has a lot of contacts and we are trying to put pressure on these governments through their legislators like black caucus in the US in which she (Dabiri-Erewa) is quite familiar.
That is the struggle we are in to try and get the money back and not to be hearing all sorts of statements about how much has been recovered from late military dictator, General Sani Abacha and other sources which heightened our expectation just for us to be informed that these monies can be transferred back home.
Sir, to a layman, the semantic ‘recovered’ and ‘returned’ mean virtually the same thing, Isn’t?
No, they are two different things. Recover in this sense; means it has been taken away from the custody of the looter and it is in the hand of a government body. Return, means the recovered money has come back to Nigeria. There are a lot of recoveries all over the place but very little return.
How did you receive the news of the discoveries of the millions of dollars allegedly stolen by former Petroleum minister, Mrs Diezani Alison-Madueke?
There is no end to it. They keep on unveiling one after the other. We have not seen the last yet. When I got the news, I really felt shock for number of reasons. First, this is a woman and we always feel that women are not prone to this type of unrestrained looting and gross misconduct.
We thought women are more gentle and inclined to be straightforward and honest. Nigeria of today, both men and women are the same in that regard. So, that was the first shock I had.
Secondly, I was shocked by the quantity. How much of this alleged stolen money can she spend in her lifetime? Assuming that she was not caught and got away with it, would should spend a billion dollars in her lifetime? What she is going to do with it?
She has houses all over the place – Abuja, London, California name it. How many houses can you live at a time? It seems there is a deep psychosis – mental imbalance. Because when you begin to steal things you don’t need it is a sign of sickness. I was really shocked. Like I have said, we have not seen the last yet.
How would you react to the Ex-President Goodluck Jonatha’s defence that he never asked anybody to collect bribe on his behalf in the Malabu oil bribery scandal?
Well, that was what he(Jonathan) said. I was not there. Then, if Jonathan as a former Head of State came out to make such statement, we must accept that on face-value until it is contradicted by something more concrete.
Sir, some of your critics have adjudged your public statements as overwhelming partisan, what would you say to this?
Yea, I am extremely partisan with anti-corruption. I am very partisan in my detestation for corrupt people who are robbing this country of its resources and sending us spiraling down into poverty, misery and hardship whilst they want to live in opulence from generation to generation.
Those people are of great danger to this country and there is no way that I would not be against them. I cannot be objective in that kind of thing. I think what they had done can be classified as crime against humanity because if you look at it, here we are today struggling with bad road, poor infrastructure, health facilities are not developed. We don’t have good medical institutions.
Everybody is going to India, London and so on for medical attention. Who cause this? It is these corrupt people ! They deprived us of the means to establish various social services that will improve the quality of lives of our people.
They are just condemning us into a state of wretchedness. So, I cannot be objective about that. There is no question about that. I am partisan in a sense that a man who stands for uprightness and integrity, the anti-corruption protagonist, President Muhammadu Buhari belongs to a party.
Naturally, my sympathy will be for that party because he heads it. I will strongly support him in a struggle to sanitize this country. The Peoples Democratic Party, PDP which is the other political party only exists just to loot, divide the resources of the nation among themselves and leave the rest of us to perish so to speak.
But some of the chieftains of the ruling All Progressives Congress, APC are also been accused of corruption?
We know. But if you take a critical look at most of the people who had been accused , they are PDP people who crossed over to the APC. Just check. It is the PDP culture they have brought to the APC.
They have not changed. And if you look at the problems in the APC, they are substantially caused by the PDP-turned APC chieftains. They are totally indiscipline, unrestrained in looting, no iota of interest in this country. They are only pre-occupied by self-aggrandizement, self-sustenance and enrichment. They are all PDP.
But the Secretary to the Federal Government, Babachir Lawal who is being investigated for corruption has never been in the PDP?
Obviously, he is not PDP. I don’t think he has been a Politician. So, we await his defence. If he is guilty, the consequences are clear. I cannot say everybody in the APC government is an Angel. Certainly not.
What I will say is that anyone who falls short of the standard set by the President should be shown the way out. So, I am not going to make a case for anybody. In fact, it is an embarrassment to the rest of the APC but with particular reference to the case of the SFG, I cannot yet conclude until we see the report of the Attorney-General of the Federation, Abubakar Malami. That is when we can say for sure if he is guilty or not.
People were very surprised you rose to the defence of the acting EFCC Boss, Ibrahim Magu when he was accused of corruption. What informed that?
He is one of the best people I have ever met.
Even with the overwhelming allegations that have been leveled against him?
They are all false. He is a very fine human being, honest and upright. He is very dedicated to his job. He is fearless; he has no bias, no regard for anyone regardless of his status. Once, there is a hint, he will go into it without looking back. I can tell you, I know him to be a very upright and honest person. The allegations are all false.
The main allegation is that he hired a house of N40million. He never hired any house! It was the Federal Capital Development Authority who hired that house for two years. And I believe the 40million will even include the furniture but I am not even justifying the amount. But he knew nothing. He is a civil servant.
Government has given you a house, move in. So, there is nothing wrong in that. He is an innocent man.
People who are trying to pull him down are the people who are afraid of his commitment to the struggle. Who know he does not compromise and won’t make exceptions even for them or their friends.
That is why they want to take him out. All the accusations are false or they are misrepresented. For example, they said, he flew in the aircraft of somebody who is presently being accused or about to be tried for corruption. But at the time he flew in the said aircraft, the man was not under investigation.
The man offered him a flight I think from Kaduna to Abuja. At that time, they were both working for the government to determine to what extent military Officers were involved in stealing funds meant for equipment and weapons. Two of them were working together. He was appointed by this same government.
There was nothing against him then. Should we say he should not accept an offer of a flight? It is all a set up by those who are not happy Magu is fighting corruption with all energy, dedication and commitment.
They want to stop him and bring somebody who will lower the tempo and the rhythm that we will just lose the fight against corruption. It is a conspiracy.
How would you react to People who condemn the Buhari Government for not securing a single conviction on corruption cases since he assumed office?
People said that out of ignorance because up till sometime around May, 2015, there is no way any corruption case would succeed because senior Lawyers were frustrating it, dragging it on, challenging jurisdiction and appealing on that jurisdiction ground alone, leaving the main corruption trial at the High court and appealing up to Supreme Court and that.
For example, former Abia State Governor, Orji Uzor Kalu’s appeal to the Supreme Court has just collapsed and he his back to the High court now. Kalu’s case started sometime around 2007. There are some high profile corruption cases that have been on since 2003 pursuing the same process!
You will see all these Senior Advocates on television and making all sorts of statements. They are all involved because they share part of the loot because it is from the loot that they are paid. So, they feel determined to protect that loot. But now things have changed, we have the administration of Criminal Justice Act which has eliminated most of the tricks and basis of frustration which the Senior Advocates have been using.
You will notice trials have been going on faster. Former Minister of Niger Delta, Godsday Orubebe case has been completed and judgment delivered. As we move towards July, we will see more and more cases been determined.
So, things have changed but just need time to gather momentum. Before the end of this year, there will be a lot of convictions and acquittals because it is not everybody who is accused is guilty.
People are Speculating if the former Delta State Governor, James Ibori who has completed his jail term in the UK will be prosecuted when he returns home, what is your view on this?
I have already expressed my view that it will be a waste of time doing that. The man has been charged, tried, convicted and he has served his term and came out. And right now, they are even compiling his assets to know what to cease.
He has completed his process. If he comes back to Nigeria and you want to try him afresh when we have about 60 cases on right now which are still struggling towards convictions.
Are we going to leave all that and be running after a man that had already served his term? It will just be a waste of time as far as I am concern. He is going to come up with a defence that he has already served the jail term for whatever you want to try him for. Then resources, time and energy would have been diverted on a wasteful and vindictive project.
Tell us the latest on your proposal for a special court to try corruption cases
It is before the National Assembly right now. It will improve the speed in discharging corruption cases. This will be a court that is dealing on corruption and other few other crimes like money laundry and terrorism with limited jurisdiction. Judges who have integrity and are deicated to duty will be selected to man these court.
